The Passat W8 has a water-cooled alternator

"Will with a W8 races an E30" (hi-im-will) 02/17/2015 at 23:36 • Filed to: None

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Mine just failed! $450 for a questionable rebuilt unit, and draining oil, water, and depending on who you ask, AC, just to access the thing. Hooray!

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Vicente Esteve > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/17/2015 at 23:40

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How's W8 ownership.

I am seriously intrigued.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/17/2015 at 23:40

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Its so nice finding out just how overengineered German cars through a repair estimate! Things you'd never know were there but now can appreciate through catastrophic failure.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/17/2015 at 23:41

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I looked at a W8 wagon, and wanted one badly, but every single person I asked told me to avoid it like sailing through the Bermuda triangle in a porous boat.

EL_ULY > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/17/2015 at 23:44

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Lexus HS250 has a water warmed catalytic converter.

1st gen ES300 had a hydraulic cooling fan.

BATC42 > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/17/2015 at 23:46

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My parents have a Passat with a big engine too, a V6 TDI. And to do a damn thing on the engine, like the timing belt is an adventure on its own. They did timing belt only twice since they bought the car (in 2005), each time around €1,000 I think because it takes so much time to do.

EL_ULY > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/17/2015 at 23:48

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I tested this once before here at my dealer and the one I used to work at. Showing various parts that were very odd from a standard design. People were going on and on about German engineering when none of those parts were German or from a German car lol.

They do have some odd designs yes, but ultimately all brands from all countries do as well. Germany does get all the praise for their efforts for some reason. I've been trying to find out why.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > Vicente Esteve 02/17/2015 at 23:50

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This is the first W8 specific issue I've had, and even then, its only special because the alternator is unique. Otherwise, all the issues have been general B5.5 Passat problems, like torn CV boots, frozen PCV, and all sorts of bizarre electrical issues (all fixed by disconnecting then reconnecting the battery). Maintenance is not terrible, but certainly worse than most japanese/american cars. Requires a few special tools, the standard special German fluids, etc. Takes 9 qts of oil for some reason.

As a driver, it is a great car. I've been daily driving it for 2 years, with a few cross country trips. It is incredibly comfortable, eats highway miles, and can surprise you with how much power it has. Unstoppable in the snow, and does great drifts, but also handles reasonably well on track. Will easily swallow 8ft boards at Home Depot, and I have used it in the past to haul 11 full size commercial florescent light fixtures.

Also neatly fits a twin mattress with the seats down.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > EL_ULY 02/17/2015 at 23:53

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Maybe Germans just like to cool strange things? My E30 had a fuel cooler in the return line that used the cold side AC to remove heat.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > EL_ULY 02/17/2015 at 23:54

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E30 325is has a AC cooled fuel line.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 02/17/2015 at 23:55

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It's certainly not a car for the mechanically timid. Whole thing is full of interesting/odd solutions.

Scary__goongala! > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/17/2015 at 23:58

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Explain to me how you water cool an alternator. A part composed of a metal housing with copper bits and things that move inside of it that also carry an electrical charge.

Boxer_4 > EL_ULY 02/17/2015 at 23:58

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The V6 third gen Camry had a hydraulic cooling fan, too.

Makoyouidiot > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 00:06

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I saw a W8 on Carmax's website. The temptation is so strong...I did have a B5.5 V6 Passat before, tho, and having something that similar to something I already had would probably bother me.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > EL_ULY 02/18/2015 at 00:32

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Was this not the work of the Germans?

Steve in Manhattan > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 01:15

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Water cooled? How come it isn't air cooled like every single other one? How much more does that complicate things ....

pip bip - choose Corrour > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 01:21

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why oh why do the Germans insist on over complicating everything , just make it reliable!!

EL_ULY > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 01:25

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i've seen many similar odd things in my many years turning wrenches, yet the German stuff gets the credit as cool. So odd. Oh well :]

TwinCharged - Is Now UK Opponaut > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 06:18

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W8? I salute you sir.

Old-Busted-Hotness > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 07:27

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My Ranger has a water-cooled (or more likely heated) PCV valve.

Vicente Esteve > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 07:47

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You should do a review or a 6 month ownership recap of everything thats happened.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > EL_ULY 02/18/2015 at 07:58

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Because when Germany does it, it's generally not necessary.

Step 1 in replacing an APB Timing Belt: Remove the front of the car.

Germans tend to design something in AutoCAD and then figure out what tools are needed to do the job. Or what inane procedures are needed.

So the lock carrier was likely only able to be slid on the bumper shocks, but after realizing they couldn't get the tools in to do a timing belt, it was redesigned to swing like a gate. As opposed to just providing more space and redoing the sheet metal.

jkm7680 > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 08:00

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That's awesome! Glad you enjoy the W8. Do what Vincente said, a review!

EL_ULY > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 02/18/2015 at 08:50

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So does GM, so does Volvo, and so does everyone else. I can also list various amounts of examples i've seen in my 13 years turning wrenches and they all can seem kind of unnecessary. I own a Audi A6 Quattro (c5). I did he timing chain tensioner gaskets at home recently and it was a bit of a hassle but there was never a time where I thought it was "over engineered". Not much more of a hassle than re sealing a front cover on a 4GR-FE, Volvo V8, or engine speed sensors on Rapide. Calibrating a hydraulic roof on R230 SL550 and Lexus SC430 each have their specialized procedure but most would find Merc's components as "over engineered" and not the Lexus. I just don't see why that is. We have waaaay more (mechanical) special tools on our Volvo and Aston section than our Merc section, but that doesn't mean they are "over engineered" in your sense of "what inane procedures are needed"

I guess to me, over engineered would be a way beefy control arm. A transmission placed in a car with way less power that it's rated. Things like that BUT that ultimately function longer than normal with little to no failure. Something that contradicts most people say are "over engineered" by the Germans. " Oh, the locks on my Mercedes are hydraulic. I like that they are over engineered " NOPE, Not over engineered at all. It was simply their approach and more likely than non, a failure. " But I appreciate the engineering " Every component on every car from every country is engineering!!!! Their cars just can't be simply compared to an ecobox 4 times below its MSRP and hailed as superior engineering. I really need to find that post I made of various labeled parts. All also an odd approach to common things and non were German.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > EL_ULY 02/18/2015 at 09:19

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Something that contradicts most people say are "over engineered" by the Germans. "Oh, the locks on my Mercedes are hydraulic. I like that they are over engineered"

Technically speaking, they were vacuum locks up until the W211 era. :)

When most people think about over-engineered, it really means "More expensive way to break".

I'm looking at it from "They could have taken route B, and accomplished the exact same thing, without needing to contort your mind to figure out how they actually solved it, since the Factory Service Manual doesn't mention this at all" Sure they could have extended the nose of the B5 chassis further out towards the front (making it have the proportions of a 100, which I don't think is a *bad* thing, per se), but instead we'll make the lock carrier removable only in this certain manner so we can get at the front of the engine.

The Germans tend to seek refuge in audacity with their silliness (take the vacuum locks, sure they are incredibly quiet and smooth, but also incredibly expensive. Hence why Benz moved to electric locks on the W211, which I could consider a tacit admission that the cost benefit analysis wasn't entirely thought through, and it was more of a "That's the way we've always done door locks, Herr Schmidt"). Sure everyone does it (I'll agree with you on Volvos, and rate the GM comment as "it depends", mainly since there is almost always another way to do it). Occasionally something does slip past the addition of silliness (Straight six Benz diesels when replacing the timing chain), and it becomes a shock of relief more than anything else (because you were expecting to need about 3 special tools, a lock pin for something, and about 6 hands upon first glance).

But even in German land, there are degrees. BMWs and Benzes tend to be rather straightforward, as in "Yes, it's goofy, but there's a very good reason it's goofy, and once you see it, you agree that it is likely the best solution to solve that issue". VWs and Audis, well, there are things I've seen on my B5 so far that makes me wonder if the engineers were, in fact, drunk, when they designed it (Mainly the wiring harnesses [I've done two bypasses and two patches so far], but late 90s BMs and Benzes suffer some of the same issues, but not to the *degree* I've watched things go crazy on my S4).

Bright points from the VW engineers? It only takes 2 bolts, 4 screws, one hose quick-clamp, and a lot of swearing to remove a B5's front bumper. That I can appreciate, because it was far simpler than the bumper on my G35 (which, in the ideal situation, needs to drop so you can remove the light clusters to replace the dipped beam lamps. This can be avoided if you bribe a small child to weasel the bulb in [small hands], but I didn't have one, so off the bumper came).

MonkeePuzzle > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 10:13

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why is it water cooled?

Will with a W8 races an E30 > Steve in Manhattan 02/18/2015 at 10:23

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My guess is because it is a relatively large alternator, and there is absolutely no air flow anywhere near it. 150A, and surrounded by other BS on all sides.

Will with a W8 races an E30 > MonkeePuzzle 02/18/2015 at 10:24

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Probably because there is no air flow to it whatsoever, it's completely surrounded by other bits, has no fan, looks like it has no room for a fan, and is 150A, which was big at the time.

EL_ULY > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 02/18/2015 at 11:01

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There is a difference between someone claiming something being " typical German engineering" on a component's design and the access to that component. I feel it being more about the actual item than how to get to it (calibration and servicing included). At the end it's just nuts and bolts. If you have the time (kinja permitting) It can tell you stories from Lexus and around these parts . We need to find some GM/Dodge/Ford guy here to join in as well :] Sometime you can't help to scratch your head and think why did they do that?!?!?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 02/18/2015 at 11:16

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AutoCAD

Bitch, please. Siemens NX or CATIA.

ciscokidinsf > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 11:55

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What's the gas mileage like on the W8?

Will with a W8 races an E30 > ciscokidinsf 02/18/2015 at 12:08

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~24 highway, ~18 normal driving, ~14 in the winter on a short commute.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 02/18/2015 at 12:27

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CATIA, of course, because who else wants to build a virtual 772 and have it randomly Le Crash on you.

ciscokidinsf > Will with a W8 races an E30 02/18/2015 at 12:41

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Nice - The flat V8 (on the Phaeton) does 22 highway/16 city - very similar mpg.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > EL_ULY 02/18/2015 at 12:41

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Even without Ford, Dodge, or GM dealer experience, there are enough of his here who can tell stories of how each of those design psychologies work even through brief experience. The rule of thumb I use is that Ford design is crazy (i.e. imaginative but weird and doesn't always work - at all), GM design is stupid (rugged, but not always in the right way, and breaks in ways that an idiot should have foreseen), and Chrysler is an unpredictable mix of the two (both "stupid" and "crazy").

*Old* Land Rovers, on the other hand, tend to be the awkward nexus of tractor design, industrial installation machinery design, and "car" design when "car" is understood to mean "1930s second-hand British copy of American truck".

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > EL_ULY 02/18/2015 at 12:45

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Generally, the components themselves are particularly ingenious with regards to solving problems, like the liquid cooled alternator on the W8 (or the heat exchange block for the engine oil at the filter mount for the APB V6), but while the solutions themselves are ingenious, the manner in which they assemble the lot is less than.

Example: VW provided an afterrun coolant pump on the APB, because water-cooled turbos. This reverses the flow in the coolant pipes and uses the engine heads as the heat sink to cool the turbos. It works great and protects the turbos if they are shut off too soon after a hard run.

However, it's under the intake manifold. Which means if it leaks, the manifold has to come off, which implies the entire Y pipe and intake gets to come off too. It was bad enough that Audi eventually provided a pump relocation kit for the APB (but only for 2002 MY vehicles, as those were the only ones remaining under warranty, and the BEL version came out after that).

Ingenious way to solve the problem, but damn, could they have started with the pump in a slightly more accessible location? It's not as if they had a lack of places to mount a 12VDC coolant pump that were near existing coolant hoses (which they found one for the relocation kit).